Israel - Hamas War 2

[KingAerys_II]

They should identify the terrorists in a population of 2 million

[Jace, Extat]

3 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

absolutely no one should care.

Yeah I’m not going to support England  if it subjugates Kenya as a colony again because at the moment England is less atrocious on gay and women’s rights

Pink and Rainbow colored colonialism is still colonialism and not functionally different from the good ole civilize the savages with Christianity. Apologies, I beg your forgiveness, truly honestly But it feels like if the whites in Apartheid South Africa became a bit more feminist and pro-lgbt you’d readily side with them.

Edit. Like I feel I should note the materialistically worse off In a society, in a community, tends to be the most regressive in their social dictates and this attitude of “they’re not liberal enough so subjugation and/expulsion of them is more okay” can excuse a lot of ugly shit domestically too.

Gaza is not a subject or colony of Israel, neither has it been occupied for almost twenty years. My position has been that Israel is an ally, and a place where people like me could live in safety. And that it not only has a right to defend itself, and its citizens, but an obligation to do so. If the Palestinians put down their guns tomorrow there would be a Palestinian state tomorrow. 

This is a thread about the war between Israel and Hamas, and it's 100% the fault of the latter that it will be fought among civillians. Don't forget that. One side takes hostages and threatens to shoot them on live TV, the other -tries- to warn civillians out of target buildings.

As to the rest, well... I do have a dog in the fight. 2, depending how you count it. So I'll wade into this swamp and get messy; why not? 

I've never said that Palestine should be subject to Israel, just that Israel has to defend itself with military force against military threats. And that I don't understand what drives fellow liberals to pretzel-brain their way into opposing natural allies in favor of people who -not only have different values- but have opposite values.

I mean, I get lamenting the loss of innocent lives. I look at the carnage in Gaza with as much sadness as anybody. 

It's the pages and pages and pages of material eviscerating Israeli rights to defend themselves, their mandate to do so, that baffles me.

Israel is a right wing liberal democracy. Whatever else you can say about them, the state exists to serve its people and protects their basic human rights. 

Hamas, not so much.

I was against both the Iraq and Afghanistan occupations because, despite teaching girls to read, we simply had no business enforcing our collective will (setting aside that that will was lacking) on places on the other side of the world. Israel doesn't have the option of benevolent non-intervention, the places where girls get married as children and gays get thrown off buildings are their neighbors.

[Fragile Bird]

8 hours ago, Crixus said:

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/israelis-cheer-gaza-bombing Doubt all you want but it’s been known to happen. Sure this is old, but I wouldn’t be shocked if similar shit is happening now. 

Claiming no Israelis would ever celebrate Palestinian deaths is absolute bullshit. 

You might find this shocking, but throughout history the locals have gone out to watch battles. It’s been well reported that carriages full of townspeople went out to watch the battle of Waterloo. There were civilians watching at battles during the US civil war. I’m sure civilians have watched battles throughout thousands of years of history. There were probably people betting on who would win, David or Goliath. 

I’m sure I’ve read stories about Brits, during WW 2, in small places outside of London standing on hilltops watching the Germans bomb the city. And I know I’ve read stories from journalists in many war-torn countries drinking in the local hotel’s rooftop bar and watching the city they’re in getting bombed.

[Clueless Northman]

3 hours ago, Kalnak the Magnificent said:

A better question is why Netanyahu and his faction stopped focusing on Gaza and pivoted to the West Bank. That seems very stupid, and polling so far concurs.

Settlers, far-right as a whole, and religious extremists care about the West Bank. They don't give a shit about Gaza - the place was pretty much outside Israel proper in the "good old days", it was full of filthy Philistines after all.

[Many-Faced Votary]

16 minutes ago, Jace, Extat said:

If the Palestinians put down their guns tomorrow there would be a Palestinian state tomorrow. 

An interesting conclusion that can be derived only if you ignore the entire history of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, disregard Israel's brutal response to the Great March of Return which granted Palestine no relief or support internationally, and blame Palestinians for suffering apartheid under Israel.

Israel's apartheid against Palestinians - Amnesty International

 

16 minutes ago, Jace, Extat said:

It's the pages and pages and pages of material eviscerating Israeli rights to defend themselves, their mandate to do so, that baffles me.

More false equivalences and whataboutisms. Just as no one here has said anything other than Hamas is a terrorist organization that must be wiped out, at no point has anyone said that Israel does not have the right to defend itself.

If, to you, Israel "defending itself" means giving it carte blanche to commit war crimes and excusing its brutal apartheid regime, maybe you should reconsider the lens with which you are examining the matter.

[Ran]

2 hours ago, Padraig said:

And the hatred in Gaza has had a long time to build up.

It's worth considering that there have been increasing protests against Hamas in Gaza in recent years. Just this July, thousands took to the streets to protest over their failed administration. Flags were even burned in protest. This, despite Hamas being well-known for abductions, torture, and execution of those who speak out against them.

So, yes, hatred exists for Israel, for many reasonable reasons. But Hamas is not necessarily loved, and year by year the cracks have started to show. This may be the best possible time to remove Hamas and hope for something better.

[Conflicting Thought]

40 minutes ago, Jace, Extat said:

If the Palestinians put down their guns tomorrow there would be a Palestinian state tomorrow. 

tell that to the palestinians in the west bank

[Conflicting Thought]

19 minutes ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

An interesting conclusion that can be derived only if you ignore the entire history of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, disregard Israel's brutal response to the Great March of Return which granted Palestine no relief or support internationally, and blame Palestinians for suffering apartheid under Israel.

Israel's apartheid against Palestinians - Amnesty International

 

More false equivalences and whataboutisms. Just as no one here has said anything other than Hamas is a terrorist organization that must be wiped out, at no point has anyone said that Israel does not have the right to defend itself.

If, to you, Israel "defending itself" means giving it carte blanche to commit war crimes and excusing its brutal apartheid regime, maybe you should reconsider the lens with which you are examining the matter.

but dont you know? she is a liberal! meh

[Varysblackfyre321]

52 minutes ago, Jace, Extat said:

Gaza is not a subject or colony of Israel,

Eh yet maybe.

52 minutes ago, Jace, Extat said:

neither has it been occupied for almost twenty years.

Officially no. 
 

 

52 minutes ago, Jace, Extat said:

My position has been that Israel is an ally, and a place where people like me could live in safety.

Eh for now at least. 
 

 

52 minutes ago, Jace, Extat said:

If the Palestinians put down their guns tomorrow there would be a Palestinian state tomorrow. 

Hey did you see the article about the self-described fascist being given reign over the West Bank? He says he won’t stone the gays though so maybe that’ll be fine with you so long as his genocidal intents are relegated to ethnic groups instead of sexual and gender minorities(yet). 

52 minutes ago, Jace, Extat said:

This is a thread about the war between Israel and Hamas, and it's 100% the fault of the latter that it will be fought among civillians.

Israel can choose not to starve babies and shut off power to hospital, and engage in conduct that will see tens of thousands perhaps hundreds of thousands of what primarily be kids dead.

52 minutes ago, Jace, Extat said:

Don't forget that. One side takes hostages and threatens to shoot them on live TV, the other -tries- to warn civillians out of target buildings.

Please don’t pretend the five minutes of prep israel is giving to the Gazans to millions to try and ditch their homes before unleash hell on everything is magnanimous instead of what it is—theater for western liberals to not feel guilty when they see all the dead bodies that’ll pile up in the coming weeks.

52 minutes ago, Jace, Extat said:

I've never said that Palestine should be subject to Israel, just that Israel has to defend itself with military force against military threats.

I wholly agree. 

52 minutes ago, Jace, Extat said:

And that I don't understand what drives fellow liberals to pretzel-brain their way into opposing natural allies in favor of people who -not only have different values- but have opposite values.

Eh define natural ally.

They service American hegemonic interests.

Though that “ally” may be doing to the people of “opposite” values still may not be justified.

Aparteid South Africa—to which Israel supported as it became a pariah—still needed to have its system felt even if the whites in charge began to have more liberal sounding sentiments than the black underclasses. 

It’d not service any socially-liberal movement to pretend the oppression and brutalization is good or at least not bad because it effectively marginalized ethnic groups who on average are more reactionary.

Like Gay conservatives in America  screeching on and trying to cut off immigration from the Middle East and Africa won’t help gay rights, it’ll just help normalize reactionary and the logic necessary to exclude ultimately gays. A society generally doesn’t become more xenophobic and less homophobic, or misogynistic, because bigotry tends to be intersectional.

52 minutes ago, Jace, Extat said:

mean, I get lamenting the loss of innocent lives. I look at the carnage in Gaza with as much sadness as anybody

Sure.

52 minutes ago, Jace, Extat said:

It's the pages and pages and pages of material eviscerating Israeli rights to defend themselves, their mandate to do so, that baffles me.

I haven’t really considered Hamas bad. Thank you for stating that no one has even eluded this entire thread.

52 minutes ago, Jace, Extat said:

Israel is a right wing liberal democracy

So was America during westward expansion. 

 

52 minutes ago, Jace, Extat said:

Whatever else you can say about them, the state exists to serve its people and protects their basic human rights. 

That’s the ideal for any state, in practice it may not work as such. This isn’t a gig at Israel no state can fully realize this ambition, though some states are better than others.

Its at least a democracy for now. Though democracy is becoming a bad word amongst their main backers— Christian nationalists—as woke nonesense.

and Netanyahu is still trying to dismantle the judiciary in his pursuit of sitting up Israel as an autocracy(he’s even taking advice on how from Orban) and hasn’t been made a pariah because of it.

52 minutes ago, Jace, Extat said:

Hamas, not so much.

No they’re little more than a death cult whose corrupt leadership prays upon children themselves.

52 minutes ago, Jace, Extat said:

I was against both the Iraq and Afghanistan occupations because, despite teaching girls to read, we simply had no business enforcing our collective will (setting aside that that will was lacking) on places on the other side of the world.

This reeks of old fashioned spheres of influence nonesense.

52 minutes ago, Jace, Extat said:

Israel doesn't have the option of benevolent non-intervention, the places where girls get married as children and gays get thrown off buildings are their neighbors.

So the settlements in the West Bank good actually because the religious zealots and ethno nationalists  placed there are from groups less likely to kill the gays?

Edited October 14, 2023 by Varysblackfyre321

[Craving Peaches]

7 minutes ago, Conflicting Thought said:

tell that to the palestinians in the west bank

They put down their guns and what did they get for it? Being treated like second-class citizens, subject to violence from the IDF and settlers, homes stolen, villages burned down, and so on.

[IheartIheartTesla]

I've been somewhat surprised at how forthright the EU (or European nations in general) have been in voicing their support for Israel. The worry for the future is who (with some presence on the world stage) would advocate for a Palestinian state in the future. Putin of all people has made some noises about civilian casualties in Gaza (the irony), but Russia is an unreliable ally (if at all) to have in your corner. Cant really count on the Arab states to do much

Hopefully in the future someone will take on the mantle but it all seems so bleak right now.

[Varysblackfyre321]

41 minutes ago, Conflicting Thought said:

but dont you know? she is a liberal! meh

Conservatives, especially the farther right they are, often overestimate how many people  deep down agree with them more than they let on or even realize and are just not doing what they want to look cool, or enlightened. But sometimes they’re not that wrong and it’s to their credit of being able to modulate their rhetoric and appeals to get people who profess to disagree with them. Many a self-proclaimed liberal, or progressive, or even leftist just need the slightest rhetorical appeal to to go along with reactionary movements fully thinking they’re helping a social liberal cause.

Edited October 14, 2023 by Varysblackfyre321

[Craving Peaches]

13 minutes ago, IheartIheartTesla said:

Hopefully in the future someone will take on the mantle but it all seems so bleak right now.

I am very concerned that no one will act until it is too late. The humanitarian situation is getting worse and worse.

[polishgenius]

Just now, IheartIheartTesla said:

I've been somewhat surprised at how forthright the EU (or European nations in general) have been in voicing their support for Israel.

 

Support for Israel in general is pretty much a given for most if not all member states I think, but there's a bit of a row going on tbh because Ursula von der Leyen spoke for the entire EU when giving unconditional support to Israel (with no language indicating they need to apply restraint or abide by laws), something she has no authority to do and several nations disagreed with. Obviously no-one is saying they support Hamas but some nations are more critical of Israel's response than others and they did not appreciate being spoken for. 

He's not the only one either: Olivér Várhelyi is a Hungarian member of the European Commission who declared that the EU will be suspending all aid to the Palestinian Authority, which, again, he has no authority to do and which declaration was quickly slapped down by member nations and fellow councillors. 

 

 

[Zorral]

4 hours ago, Padraig said:

n fairness, Zorral's response was responding to you saying that the hatred of Jews among Arab and Muslims preceded the modern conflict by over a millennium.  I'm not saying that everything was rosy but as you say, there was a strong Jewish community in the Middle East into the 20th century (hardly possible if the kind of current rage existed then) and I believe that is was treated far better than the community in Europe.

Islamic Spain (with exceptions during the times of the Almhads, who hated everyone not themselves, including other forms of Islam); the Ottoman Empire -- indeed when the Jews and Moor were expelled from Spain by the xtians, the Ottoman Empire, where they were, as in many other parts of the empire, valued.  One might even invoke the Babylonians who valued their Jewish administrators and the regular people so much that they were happy to have them not only to return (though many chose to remain) but encouraged them to rebuild the Temple.  

It's generally in the medieval and modern eras that it is when the xtians arrive in whatever current Islamic empire or kingdom, where Jews were valuable members of the region, that things went pear shaped for them.

[Zorral]

The War Netanyahu Cares Most About Is His War on Israelis' Minds
The evolving narrative is that it isn't Netanyahu who's to blame for the war's opening failures, but the IDF, the Shin Bet, the protests, LGBTQ people, and secular Jews

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-14/ty-article/.premium/the-war-netanyahu-cares-most-about-is-his-war-on-israelis-minds/0000018b-2f94-d450-a3af-6f9c15310000

Quote

 

'The evolving narrative is that it isn't Netanyahu who's to blame for the war's opening failures, but the IDF, the Shin Bet, the protests, LGBTQ people, and secular Jews'

'On March 27, the day after he fired Defense Minister Yoav Gallant, I wrote here: “As of last night, Benjamin Netanyahu is officially and finally, the most dangerous man to the existence of the State of Israel. The prime minister’s chamber is occupied by a man who constitutes a clear, palpable and present danger to the state’s security, its fortitude, its cohesion, and its social fabric.”

'In over half a year since, we have seen a plethora of proof to support this harsh statement. These include: violation of promises to Presidents Biden and Herzog; Netanyahu’s refusal to meet with the IDF chief of staff ahead of the vote on the reasonableness cause; his repeated surrender to the threats of Yariv Levin, Itamar Ben-Gvir and Bezalel Smotrich, who forbade him to compromise on the judicial legislation.

'On “Gallant night,” as the firing was reported, Israelis inundated the roads and public squares in the dark of night, stopping the prime minister from going through with the reckless step. Imagine where we would be had Netanyahu persisted in it. An even more rapid disintegration of our security strength, a more lethal erosion of our deterrence. But he, in any case, kept going until he pulverized our rickety collective infrastructure, social, economic and defense. It is sad to say that even in Israel’s most difficult hour, it seems that Netanyahu hasn’t stopped. Not in his mode of functioning, not in taking responsibility, not in his political calculations, not in his plans for the future.

'Toward 9 P.M. on Friday night, long after Shabbat began, it was announced that the prime minister would at any moment make a “special announcement” to the public. Some suffered panic attacks, fearing more bad news, perhaps a second front; some were filled with hope: Perhaps we’ll hear of a successful rescue of hostages from Gaza? After all, the man is a master at hogging the credit, but so what? That would be small potatoes in return for a little bit of good news.

'And what did we hear? Zilch. Empty, meaningless verbiage, an opaque sentence about how he, too, spoke with some families of abductees. Only then did we get it: His family and the staff watched the reports of the remote conversation held by U.S. President Joe Biden for 90 minutes (!) with families of abductees who hold American citizenship. They saw how their justified, furious criticism was building up in the studios, and more importantly in the homes of viewers. They saw the families who spoke with the American president for over an hour, but who got not a minute of attention from their own prime minister.

'They also saw a jaw-dropping report by Raviv Drucker: During the lethal fighting, Netanyahu’s bureau complained to the Shin Bet (!) against Gallant’s chief of staff, for recording a discussion. In the most difficult and sensitive time for the State of Israel, this is what goes on between the prime minister and the defense minister, who warned him, as did the ranks below him, that we were headed for a security disaster. And when he went public with his opinion, he received a humiliating termination notice.

What Netanyahu cares about is forcing his narrative upon the public’s consciousness – a sort of psyop against his own people – in order to escape that public’s pitchforks. He cares about that as much as he cares about bringing Hamas to its knees. That is why he scurried to the podium, to blather his watery words into airtime.

'Not a word coming close to “responsibility,” “we were wrong,” or any permutation of either escaped his lips. The elders among us remember Yitzhak Rabin – even on the night Friday, October 14, 1994 – speaking to the cameras after news came of the failed rescue attempt of Nachshon Waxman. “I am responsible,” were the first words of the prime and defense minister. He could not do otherwise. Neither can Bibi do otherwise, only the other way around.

'We are witnessing the evolving post-war narrative: Blame the IDF, the chief of staff, the Shin Bet chief, the protest movement, and LGBTQ and secular people who don’t observe Shabbat (according to a revolting column published by Srugim – the religious Zionist movement’s flagship website) and the “inside collaborators.” Notorious Bibi-ists on social media are already flooding the message ad nauseum.

'And of course, in the media, Netanyahu’s attack dogs are all ready to pounce. A Bibi-ist TV reporter promised her viewers that the day would come when she would deal with Haaretz’s responsibility for the war. The newsroom is waiting with bated breath.'

'The morning after the war, the Bibi-ists, the settlers, and the religious Zionists will defend their leader to the last, knowing that his downfall is their own as well. In response, the sane majority must prepare for siege. For a sit-in strike of half a million people around the government compound in Jerusalem. Without any sort of aggression. Just remain there, until a chopper lands atop the building to help the man who brought disgrace and disaster upon his people flee in shame.'

There is no limits to Bibi's moral depravity. He is Israel's biggest enemy. Hamas can wait. He is a fucking plague on the State of Israel.

 

 

[Craving Peaches]

38 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

Olivér Várhelyi is a Hungarian member of the European Commission who declared that the EU will be suspending all aid to the Palestinian Authority, which, again, he has no authority to do and which declaration was quickly slapped down by member nations and fellow councillors. 

No idea if this is true or not but there was some discussion online that he said this because of Orban's influence or something.

[Werthead]

Iran has hinted that it may intervene if the assault on Gaza goes ahead without concern for Palestinian lives, and that would be an escalation that could be blamed on Israel.

Israel is saying it plans to attack the northern Gaza Strip by land, air and sea. The question is if this is a fishing expedition to destroy Hamas infrastructure, collapse the tunnels and leave, or if they plan to annex the entire northern ~40% of the Gaza Strip, which would make the situation in the remainder almost intolerable.

52 minutes ago, IheartIheartTesla said:

I've been somewhat surprised at how forthright the EU (or European nations in general) have been in voicing their support for Israel. The worry for the future is who (with some presence on the world stage) would advocate for a Palestinian state in the future. Putin of all people has made some noises about civilian casualties in Gaza (the irony), but Russia is an unreliable ally (if at all) to have in your corner. Cant really count on the Arab states to do much

Hopefully in the future someone will take on the mantle but it all seems so bleak right now.

The EU has also doubled its Palestinian relief fund and is contributing supplies to the relief efforts in Egypt (which can't get to the border right now due to the situation).

[Padraig]

1 hour ago, Ran said:

So, yes, hatred exists for Israel, for many reasonable reasons. But Hamas is not necessarily loved, and year by year the cracks have started to show. This may be the best possible time to remove Hamas and hope for something better.

You are right that there probably is a way to turn the people in Gaza almost completely against Hamas.  I fear this isn't the way though. But I hope this is another of those times where I am wrong.

1 hour ago, polishgenius said:

Support for Israel in general is pretty much a given for most if not all member states I think, but there's a bit of a row going on tbh because Ursula von der Leyen spoke for the entire EU when giving unconditional support to Israel (with no language indicating they need to apply restraint or abide by laws), something she has no authority to do and several nations disagreed with. Obviously no-one is saying they support Hamas but some nations are more critical of Israel's response than others and they did not appreciate being spoken for. 

This sounds right.  Mainstream German politicians are nearly always going to be sensitive about been critical against Israel.  And Von der Leyen is German.  And obviously Germany has an influence on the EU also.  While the Hamas attack certainly drives home that support across the EU.

[karaddin]

3 hours ago, Ran said:

It's worth considering that there have been increasing protests against Hamas in Gaza in recent years. Just this July, thousands took to the streets to protest over their failed administration. Flags were even burned in protest. This, despite Hamas being well-known for abductions, torture, and execution of those who speak out against them.

So, yes, hatred exists for Israel, for many reasonable reasons. But Hamas is not necessarily loved, and year by year the cracks have started to show. This may be the best possible time to remove Hamas and hope for something better.

Surely that's an argument for attacking the support base of Hamas, not reckless action that will kill thousands of civilians and help their recruitment.

Again I'm entirely on board with trying to end Hamas, but mass deaths with apparent disregard for civilian casualties isn't the way to do that.