Israel Hamas War XI -- Foggier and Foggier

[Zorral]

One Factor Behind the Gaza Cease-Fire Deal: A Massive Shift in the U.S. Relationship With Israel

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2023/11/israel-cease-fire-gaza-what-now.html

Quote

 

The Israel-Hamas hostages-for-prisoners exchange is a more generous deal for Hamas than Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said he’d even consider a week ago. What changed? ....

.... However, the tide has shifted in recent years, as Netanyahu’s increasingly right-wing, sometimes-theocratic government has alienated many liberal, secular American Jews. Hamas’ attack at first bolstered pro-Israel feelings, even among critics. But the intensity of airstrikes, the mounting civilian casualties, and Netanyahu’s stubborn refusal to budge even a little toward a truce—all this spurred a surge of frustration and outrage, even among Israel’s loyal supporters.

In recent days, support has been building in Congress for a bill that makes further aid to Israel conditional on a cease-fire, a flood of humanitarian aid in Gaza, or both. Biden’s top aides have said they will not support Israel if it extends the war on Hamas to the southern part of Gaza, where many civilians have fled, as Netanyahu has said he intends to do. Biden has also told his aides to prepare sanctions and visa bans against Jewish settlers in the West Bank who have killed or forcibly evicted Palestinians. (It is appalling that the Israeli government hasn’t yet arrested any of these settlers, who have immeasurably dampened the moral case that Israel has mounted in defense of its military campaign in Gaza.)

At least as alarming to Israelis, a recent CNN poll shows that, for the first time, Democrats are more sympathetic to Palestinians (39 percent) than to Israel (35 percent). This is a massive shift from just after Hamas’ attack, when 48 percent sympathized more with Israel and just 22 percent with the Palestinians. Among Democrats younger than 35, the margin is starker still: 74 percent support Palestinians, while just 16 percent support Israel. Even among those older than 65, fewer than half—45 percent—are more sympathetic toward Israel, while a quarter lean toward Palestinians.

These trends are not only jeopardizing the near-automatic support that Israel has enjoyed in Congress for many decades. The trends are also endangering Biden’s reelection campaign, as a growing number of young voters—as well as Muslim voters, who have a strong presence in the battleground state of Michigan—have said they will not support him in 2024. ....

 

 

 

Edited November 24, 2023 by Ran

[Daeron the Daring]

4 hours ago, Darryk said:

Nah I don't think they're the embodiment of the left, just a small faction of it.

I only brought it up cause the mention of China potentially invading Taiwan reminds me how many of those critics of Israel that Max Blumenthal and George Galloway represent would probably defend China if they did that. The double-standards of SOME on the left piss me off.

Same here. Altough the particular double-standards that bother me are not some alternativist appeasers (with obscure importance), but those who swordfight with halfway giving in to reality only to weaponize it for 'pragmatic' counterarguments, in particular the one that enables the ignorance of masses. Continuously.

Edited November 23, 2023 by Daeron the Daring

[mormont]

Whatever you were trying to say there became too convoluted for me to get it, I’m afraid. 

[House Balstroko]

8 hours ago, Darryk said:

Nah I don't think they're the embodiment of the left, just a small faction of it.

I only brought it up cause the mention of China potentially invading Taiwan reminds me how many of those critics of Israel that Max Blumenthal and George Galloway represent would probably defend China if they did that. The double-standards of SOME on the left piss me off.

The Grayzone is utter trash when it comes to journalism. They actively support Russia in its invasion of Ukraine. 
 

I wouldn’t say that these are your typical left wing individuals/organisations. These are part of the far-left (tankies). They operate on the principle that everything that opposes the West needs to be supported at all costs. 

[Daeron the Daring]

10 hours ago, House Balstroko said:

These are part of the far-left (tankies)

No. Tankies, who are far-left indeed, are not like this. They are conscious endorsers of the authoritarian left (communist) regimes because they perceive their methods righteous, be it foreign or domestic policy. 

I've not been familiar with the names mentioned before, but they are much more larping right-winger reactionaries, who present themselves (their opinion) as an alternative. The purpose of such voices is always to make people reactionary, and accepting of the foreign geopolitical actions of various states.

But anyway, the point I originally meant to express is that it's ridiculous to assume that the left's pro-Palestinian stance is antisemitc, and even when antisemitism is the reason for anti-Israel sentiment (on the left), it's not because of these guys.

Edited November 24, 2023 by Daeron the Daring

[kissdbyfire]

Good news, or at least a respite in the avalanche of bad news.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2023/nov/24/israel-hamas-war-live-ceasefire-set-to-begin-on-friday-morning-with-hostage-release-due-shortly-after

I hope the hostages that are released get to join their families and loved ones asap, and that a proper or more adequate amount of aid gets delivered.

[Zorral]

Many in Middle East blame United States for devastation in Gaza

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/11/23/israel-gaza-war-america-middle-east/

Quote

 

CAIRO — The entire front page of a Lebanese newspaper this month displayed President Biden’s face superimposed over pictures of dead Palestinian children, under a headline declaring “Western genocide.”

In Egypt and some Persian Gulf states, once-bustling Starbucks and McDonald’s outlets sit empty thanks to a boycott of U.S. brands. And in Beirut, Tunis and other Arab capitals, protesters have marched on U.S. diplomatic missions, sometimes burning American flags, to vent their fury at the staggering death toll in Gaza.

The prevailing view throughout the Middle East is that while Israel is doing the fighting, this is an American war. Without the diplomatic cover and high-tech munitions provided by the United States, the reasoning goes, Israel wouldn’t be able to carry out the massive operation it launched in Gaza to “eradicate Hamas” that a U.N. official this week said has caused “complete and utter carnage.” Israel’s aerial and ground attack on Gaza came after Hamas massacred more than 1,200 people and abducted scores of others on Oct. 7.International human rights groups, alarmed by the images of maimed or lifeless Palestinian children pulled from the rubble, have warned that the Israeli response is disproportionate and probably includes war crimes, a charge Israeli authorities reject. In Arab nations, where solidarity with the Palestinian cause has endured for decades, millions are watching as the only force they see as powerful enough to stop the bloodletting in Gaza instead defends it. The U.S.-backed pause in fighting set to begin Friday is generally welcomed, but it falls short of Arab calls for the United States to back a longer truce.

“In a very important moment of history, when principles were put to the test, they failed the world,” said Noha Bakr, an associate professor of political science at the American University in Cairo.

Political analysts in the Middle East called Washington’s support for Israel’s war a reckless position that doesn’t account for the long-term diplomatic, security and economic effects of alienating a region where rivals, namely China, are carving deeper inroads. More importantly, they said, the war has toppled the United States from its moral high ground, with Biden’s lectures to Russia about safeguarding civilian life in Ukraine now juxtaposed with his more muted statements as Israel bombs schools and hospitals in Gaza. ....

 

 

[Relic]

On 11/23/2023 at 3:34 PM, Tywin et al. said:

No, this started on October 7th when Hamas attacked Israel, murdering over 1,200 people and taking over 240 hostages. Full stop.

yeah, and the world started when you were born. 

[Heartofice]

1 hour ago, Zorral said:

Many in Middle East blame United States for devastation in Gaza

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/11/23/israel-gaza-war-america-middle-east/

 

Well of course they do. I wonder how many blame Qatar and Iran for Hamas? None I bet.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

9 minutes ago, Relic said:

yeah, and the world started when you were born. 

This is every bit as silly as thinking Randle and Brunson would be saviors for the Knicks. 

[Relic]

2 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

This is every bit as silly as thinking Randle and Brunson would be saviors for the Knicks. 

not a single person thinks that. randle got to go. 

denying history is unbecoming, however. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

Just now, Relic said:

not a single person thinks that. randle got to go. 

Did you not see the reaction after one playoff win? 

Quote

denying history is unbecoming, however. 

Who is denying history? Both sides have done seriously fucked up things to each other over the centuries. That however doesn't change the fact that there was a general ceasefire in place until Hamas committed one of the worst crimes in modern history on October 7th, and they didn't do it because they wanted to help Palestinians who they were suppose to be governing and thus protecting. They did it because they wanted to disrupt peace talks with other parties, to kill as many Jews as possible and also were more than happy to get Palestinians killed. If they did nothing on that day almost all the dead would still be alive. 

[Zorral]

NYC Holocaust survivors urge empathy, tolerance amid Israel-Hamas war

https://gothamist.com/news/nyc-holocaust-survivors-urge-empathy-tolerance-amid-israel-hamas-war

Quote

 

.... He and other survivors interviewed by Gothamist described a complex range of reactions after Oct. 7 — from fears over a rise in anti-semitism to concerns about the violence being perpetrated on Israelis and Palestinians alike.

“Whether it's the 1,400 plus who died in Israel or the 10,000 plus who are dying in Gaza, that I find equally upsetting,” said Gosler, who spent his earliest years in hiding with a non-Jewish Dutch family. Israel has since downgraded its estimated death toll to 1,200, while the Gaza Ministry of Health has reported the death toll there to be more than 11,000.

Gosler said he identifies with the experiences of both Israelis and Palestinians in the conflict – “especially the death and dislocation.”

From his apartment, he said it’s been hard to watch the violence unfold on the news, and he feels like some parts of history are repeating themselves.

“We're in that state actually, the 1930s. Kristallnacht is about to happen. That's the sad part. Not necessarily to Jews, could be to Muslims, could be to some poor neighborhood of one sort or another,” he said. “Maybe it will happen in the Ukraine, as it has happened in some ways, or maybe it will happen as in some ways it has in the Middle East,” he said. ....

 

 

[Zorral]

10 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

a general ceasefire in place until Hamas committed one of the worst crimes in modern history on October 7th,

Not on the West Bank, and quite a few other places, except the firing was done by Israelis taking other people's land and homes or just for funsies.

[Ran]

Interesting to see Sisi suggest the idea of a demilitarized Palestine with a potential international Arab coalition, or some other peacekeeping force, guranteeing security.

More in this direction would be a great way to help push the door open on the two-state solution again, especially after Hamas is gone and Netanyahu is dumped from power.

[JoannaL]

Doron Katz Asher, 34, and her two daughters  Raz, 4, and Aviv, 2, are free.

I had seen an interview with their desperate husband and father in german television some time ago, and i remember thinking how unlikely a good outcome is, and how awful this situation was for this poor man (hoping and hoping and in the end only death). I am so glad that I was wrong.

 

[TrueMetis]

4 hours ago, Zorral said:

Not on the West Bank, and quite a few other places, except the firing was done by Israelis taking other people's land and homes or just for funsies.

29 Israeli deaths, 227 Palestinian death in 2023 before Oct 7th. Now that I think about it, maybe the switch from ceasefire to humanitarian pause makes sense, because the fire does not in fact seem to cease much.

Videos of released hostages are good to see though, hopefully we'll see announcements of even more soon.

Edited November 24, 2023 by TrueMetis

[GrimTuesday]

It will be very interesting to see how the statements of these hostages allign with the statements made by Yocheved Lifshitz, because that was a bit of a pie in the face moment for Israel. Obviously hostages are going to have different experiences so there will obviously be some difference in what they say about the condition they were kept in, but I can't imagine that Israel is going allow them to say whatever they want and there will be some level of coaching or at least making it clear what is acceptable to day (though from what I have seen there will be no outright censorship).

Police have been instructed to crack down on celebrations of prisoner releases. Palestinians can't even celebrate the freeing of political prisoners without facing Israeli repression

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/ahead-of-slated-palestinian-prisoner-release-ben-gvir-tells-police-to-shut-down-celebrations/

Edited November 24, 2023 by GrimTuesday

[Ran]

5 hours ago, Zorral said:

Not on the West Bank, and quite a few other places, except the firing was done by Israelis taking other people's land and homes or just for funsies.

 

[Kalbear]

And a few weeks ago IDF forces shot fairly indiscriminately in the same camp, killing a 65 year old with special needs:

https://imemc.org/article/israeli-soldiers-kill-a-palestinian-man-with-special-needs-in-tulkarem/