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J. Stargaryen

R+L=J v.113

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Reference guide

The Tower of the Hand has an excellent analysis of this theory:
Jon Snow's Parents

And Westeros' Citadel also provides a summary:
Jon Snow's Parents

A Wiki of Ice and Fire:
Jon Snow Theories

Frequently Asked Questions:

How can Jon be a Targaryen if he has a burned hand?
Targaryens are not immune to fire. Aerion Brightflame died drinking wildfire. Aegon V and his son Duncan are thought to have died in a fire-related event at Summerhall. Rhaenyra was eaten by Aegon II's dragon, presumably roasted by fire before the dragon took a bite. Viserys died when he was crowned with molten gold. Dany suffered burns from the fire pit incident at the end of A Dance with Dragons. Finally, the author has stated outright that Targaryens are not immune to fire. Jon's burned hand does not mean he is ineligible to be part Targaryen. For more information about the myth of Targaryen fire immunity, see this thread.

How can Jon be a Targ if he doesn't have silver hair and purple eyes?
Not all Targaryens had the typical Valyrian look. Alysanne had blue eyes. Baelor Breakspear and his son(s) had the Dornish look. Some of the Great Bastards did not have typical Valyrian features. Jon's own half-sister Rhaenys had her mother's Dornish look.

If Jon isn't Ned's son, then why does he look so much like him?

Much is made over the fact that Arya looks like Lyanna, and Jon looks like Arya. Ned and Lyanna shared similar looks.

How can Jon be half-Targ if he has a direwolf?
Ned's trueborn children are half Stark and half Tully. Being half Tully didn't prevent them from having a direwolf so there is no reason to think being half Targaryen would prevent Jon from having a direwolf. If Lyanna is his mother, then he's still half Stark. Furthermore, there is already a character who is half Targaryen and half blood of the First Men and was a skinchanger: Bloodraven.

Since Rhaegar was already married, wouldn't Jon still be a bastard?
The evidence that Jon is legitimate is that Targaryens have a history of polygamous marriages which makes it a possibility that Rhaegar had two wives. Three Kingsguards were present at the Tower of Joy when Ned arrived. Even after Ned said that Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon were dead and Viserys had fled to Dragonstone, the Kingsguard opted to stay at the Tower of Joy stating they were obeying their Kingsguard vow. The heart of a Kingsguard's vow is to protect the king. With Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon dead, the new king would have been Viserys, unless Lyanna's child was legitimate making him the new king of the Targaryen dynasty. For a comprehensive analysis of Jon's legitimacy, see the detailed explanations in the two linked articles.


But polygamy hadn't been practiced in centuries, is it still even legal?
The practice was never made illegal and there may have been some less prominent examples after Maegor, as stated in this SSM. Furthermore, Jorah suggests it to Dany as a viable option.

Weren't the Kingsguard at Tower of Joy on the basis of an order from Aerys, to guard Lyanna as a hostage?
Aerys was sane enough to realize how taking someone hostage works even at the end of the Rebellion, and he would hardly miss the opportunity to bring Ned and Robert in line any time after the situation started to look really serious. Furthermore, regardless of on whose order the Kingsguard might have stayed at Tower of Joy, they would still be in dereliction of their duty to guard the new king.


This theory is too obvious and too many people believe it to be fact. How can it be true?
The theory is not obvious to the majority of readers. Some will get it on first read, most will not. Keep in mind that readers who go to online fan forums, such as this one, represent a very small minority of the A Song of Ice and Fire readership. Also, A Game of Thrones has been out since 1996. That's more than 18 years of readers being able to piece together this mystery.

Why doesn't Ned ever think about Lyanna being Jon's mother
?
Ned doesn't think about anyone as being his mother. He says the name 'Wylla' to Robert, but does not actively think that Wylla is the mother. He also doesn't think of Jon as his son. There are numerous mysteries in the series, and Jon's parentage is one of those. If Ned thought about Jon being Lyanna's son, it would not be a mystery.

Why should we care who Jon's parents are? Will Jon care? Who cares if he's legitimate?
Once one accepts that the evidence is conclusive and that Jon's parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna and that he is most probably legitimate, these become the important questions.

Since this theory has been refined so well, will Martin change the outcome of the story to surprise his fans?
No, he said he won't change the outcome of the story only because some people have put together all the clues and solved the puzzle.

Previous editions:

Please click on the spoiler below to reveal links to all previous editions of this thread.

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread one)

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread two)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part III)” (thread three)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part IV)” (thread four)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part V)” (thread five)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part VI)” (thread six)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Thread Part VII” (thread seven)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part VIII” (thread eight)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part IX” (thread nine)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna =Jon Thread, Part X”(thread ten)

The R+L=J thread, part XI” (thread eleven)

The R+L=J thread, part XII” (thread twelve)

R+L=J Part XXIII” (thread thirteen)

R+L=J Part XXIV” (thread fourteen)

R+L=J XXV” (thread fifteen)

R+L=J v.16” (thread sixteen)

R+L=J v.17” (thread seventeen)

R+L=J v.18” (thread eighteen)

R+L=J v.19” (thread nineteen)

R+L=J v.20” (thread twenty)

R+L=J v.21” (thread twenty-one)

R+L=J v.22” (thread twenty-two)

R+L=J v.22a” (thread twenty-two (a))

R+L=J v.23” (thread twenty-three)

R+L=J v.24” (thread twenty-four)

R+L=J v.25” (thread twenty-five)

R+L=J v.26” (thread twenty-six)

R+L=J v.27” (thread twenty-seven)

R+L=J v.28” (thread twenty-eight)

R+L=J v.29” (thread twenty-nine)

R+L=J v.30” (thread thirty)

R+L=J v.31” (thread thirty-one)

R+L=J v.32” (thread thirty-two)

R+L=J v.33” (thread thirty-three)

R+L=J v.34” (thread thirty-four)

R+L=J v.35” (thread thirty-five)

R+L=J v.36” (thread thirty-six)

R+L=J v.37” (thread thirty-seven)

R+L=J v.38” (thread thirty-eight)

R+L=J v.39” (thread thirty-nine)

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R+L=J v.40" (thread forty)

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R+L=J v.41" (thread forty-one)

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R+L=J v.42" (thread forty-two)

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R+L=J v.43" (thread forty-three)

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R+L=J v.44" (thread forty-four)

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R+L=J v.45" (thread forty-five)

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R+L=J v.46" (thread forty-six)

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R+L=J v.47" (thread forty-seven)

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R+L=J v.48" (thread forty-eight)

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R+L=J v.49" (thread forty-nine)

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R+L=J v.50" (thread fifty)

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R+L=J v.51" (thread fifty-one)

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R+L=J v.52" (thread fifty-two)

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R+L=J v.53" (thread fifty-three)

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R+L=J v.54" (thread fifty-four)

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R+L=J v.55" (thread fifty-five)

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R+L=J v.56" (thread fifty-six)

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R+L=J v.57" (thread fifty-seven)

"R+L=J v.58" (thread fifty-eight)

"R+L=J v.59" (thread fifty-nine)

"R+L=J v.60" (thread sixty)

"R+L=J v.61" (thread sixty-one)

"R+L=J v.62" (thread sixty-two)

"R+L=J v.63" (thread sixty-three)

"R+L=J v.64" (thread sixty-four)

"R+L=J v.65" (thread sixty-five)

"R+L=J v.66" (thread sixty-six)

"R+L=J v.67" (thread sixty-seven)

"R+L=J v.68" (thread sixty-eight)

"R+L=J v.69" (thread sixty-nine)

"R+L=J v.70" (thread seventy)

"R+L=J v.71" (thread seventy-one)

"R+L=J v.72" (thread seventy-two)

"R+L=J v.73" (thread seventy-three)

"R+L=J v.74" (thread seventy-four)

"R+L=J v.75" (thread seventy-five)

"R+L=J v.76" (thread seventy-six)

"R+L=J v.77" (thread seventy-seven)

"R+L=J v.78" (thread seventy-eight)

"R+L=J v.79" (thread seventy-nine)

"R+L=J v.80" (thread eighty)

"R+L=J v.81" (thread eighty-one)

"R+L=J v.82" (thread eighty-two)

"R+L=J v.83" (thread eighty-three)

"R+L=J v.84" (thread eighty-four)

"R+L=J v.85" (thread eighty-five)

"R+L=J v.86" (thread eighty-six)

"R+L=J v.87" (thread eighty-seven)

"R+L=J v.88" (thread eighty-eight)

"R+L=J v.89" (thread eighty-nine)

"R+L=J v.90" (thread ninety)

"R+L=J v.91" (thread ninety-one)

"R+L=J v.92" (thread ninety-two)

"R+L=J v.93" (thread ninety-three)

"R+L=J v.94" (thread ninety-four)

"R+L=J v.95" (thread ninety-five)

"R+L=J v.96" (thread ninety-six)

"R+L=J v.97" (thread ninety-seven)

"R+L=J v.98" (thread ninety-eight)

"R+L=J v.99" (thread ninety-nine)

"R+L=J v.100" (thread one hundred)

"R+L=J v.101" (thread one hundred one)

"R+L=J v.102" (thread one hundred two)

"R+L=J v.103" (thread one hundred three)

"R+L=J v.104" (thread one hundred four)

"R+L=J v.105" (thread one hundred five)

"R+L=J v.106" (thread one hundred six)

"R+L=J v.107" (thread one hundred seven)

"R+L=J v.108" (thread one hundred eight)

"R+L=J v.109" (thread one hundred nine)

"R+L=J v.110" (thread one hundred ten)

"R+L=J v.111" (thread one hundred eleven)

"R+L=J v.112" (thread one hundred twelve)

TWoIaF version:

You can now also view a full list of R+L=J threads in which you can openly discuss spoilers from TWoIaF.

"[TWoIaF Spoilers] R+L=J v.1"

"[TWoIaF Spoilers] R+L=J v.2"

"[TWoIaF Spoilers] R+L=J v.3"

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1) New shiny!


2) From previous thread







@ Snowfyre--



I'm with you on there still being a major twist to Jon's parentage. I know we talked about this on the other side, but I still think the larger twist to this is that it doesn't mean that R+L=King Jon Targ (as opposed to the twists being Jon's having non R+L parents). That there's no such thing as the rightful heir, that people won't care or believe he's Rhaegar's legit son, that remaining a neutral LC of the Watch is actually Jon's ticket to a following (and a better path to kingship, if one wants to go there), and that Jon's character will choose to remain a "bastard" is where this twist resides.





I agree that Westeros isn't going to give a hoot (or even believe) that Jon is Rhaegar's son and thus "rightful King" over then. It matters more what he does in the coming war, IMO. I do tend to believe that Jon will become King but he's not going to just adopt the Targ name and customs, that wouldn't be true to the importance of Jon as ice and fire.



@Snowfyre: I don't mind discussing alternative, but the problem is that any time someone puts forth evidence for a new daddy for Jon, it falls incredibly flat because of lack of evidence.


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There seem to be two of these threads going around currently :)

:bawl: which do we use!!!!!!! ;)

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I just wanted to add this:

I think if Jon is going to fight the Others, he'll be forced to embrace his true identity and won't have the luxury of keeping his head down.

I don't think Jon will be the next Aemon- he won't have a choice. If he doesn't choose leadership (whatever form that takes), then he would be leaving the world's fate to the Others, and Jon would never do that.

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There seem to be two of these threads going around currently :)

:bawl: which do we use!!!!!!! ;)

Just edit one of them to 114 and bookmark it for next time?

I sent King Stannis a PM. I cleaned up some of the formatting in the previous thread spoilers, so that they are all uniform.

ETA: I guess we'll be using this one.

Also, I just wanted to thank whoever it was who fixed the formatting of the quotation marks in the previous thread spoilers. I meant to do that back when I was posting the threads somewhat regularly. But anyway, that was awesome! :thumbsup:

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@Snowfyre (from previous thread continuation)



I'm a big fan of exploring alternative ways to look at some of the series' mysteries-- I like posting over in heresy after all.



But R+L=J alternatives really aren't viable (evidence-wise, and more damningly, from a sense of literary completeness and established leitmotif), and I think distract from the really interesting and more critical issue ripe for discussion: "so, R+L=J. What next?"


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@Snowfyre (from previous thread continuation)

I'm a big fan of exploring alternative ways to look at some of the series' mysteries-- I like posting over in heresy after all.

But R+L=J alternatives really aren't viable (evidence-wise, and more damningly, from a sense of literary completeness and established leitmotif), and I think distract from the really interesting and more critical issue ripe for discussion: "so, R+L=J. What next?"

Not only this, but any suggestion that alternatives haven't been considered time and again is underestimating the amount of research, consideration, etc., that has gone into the issue of Jon's parentage.

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J.Star said : "In that case, just follow the trail of Lyanna's blue roses. It leads back to Rhaegar and the Harrenhal tourney."



Trust me and i'm not trying to be anal,but i've glanced at these threads so many times gone over what you guys have ascribed as hints,forshadowing etc. Still i see clear connections to Jon being Lya's son. Hell i went to Sj4iJ's link and i come away with the same idea the same thing...Jon as Lya's son. To me this arguement on the otherside has Rheagar as Jon's father because of Rheagar's suppossed connection to Lya and that has holes in it.



This is a suggestion or maybe a request that you guys don't have to take the heart,i ask only because who all have been compiling etc. But how about finding connections that exists between R and J or somebody else if they are there or not?


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@Snowfyre (from previous thread continuation)

I'm a big fan of exploring alternative ways to look at some of the series' mysteries-- I like posting over in heresy after all.

But R+L=J alternatives really aren't viable (evidence-wise, and more damningly, from a sense of literary completeness and established leitmotif), and I think distract from the really interesting and more critical issue ripe for discussion: "so, R+L=J. What next?"

Really? I ve seen a couple that were viable but wern't given any heady way for discussion. But i will say this again.Lya on her own has enough proof to be Jon's mother.Why can' t this be said of Rheagar? On his own he doesn't hold that much weight to be frank and this to me is a problem.

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I sent King Stannis a PM. I cleaned up some of the formatting in the previous thread spoilers, so that they are all uniform.

ETA: I guess we'll be using this one.

Also, I just wanted to thank whoever it was who fixed the formatting of the quotation marks in the previous thread spoilers. I meant to do that back when I was posting the threads somewhat regularly. But anyway, that was awesome! :thumbsup:

That was me :)

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Really? I ve seen a couple that were viable but wern't given any heady way for discussion. But i will say this again.Lya on her own has enough proof to be Jon's mother.Why can' t this be said of Rheagar? On his own he doesn't hold that much weight to be frank and this to me is a problem.

i haven't seen anything that is remotely viable, unless you call anything that lacks disproof as "viable."

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Really? I ve seen a couple that were viable but wern't given any heady way for discussion. But i will say this again.Lya on her own has enough proof to be Jon's mother.Why can' t this be said of Rheagar? On his own he doesn't hold that much weight to be frank and this to me is a problem.

Well I think it's because Rhaegar is the bigger mystery. Jon's mother is already a mystery at the start of the series so the clues are perhaps heavier--being raised by Ned, being of Ned's blood but not his son, the blue rose from the HotU and the story we hear of Bael the Bard and blue roses going hand in hand with HH and Lyanna.

But I guess what you're getting at is linking R and L together. So how do you explain R dying with Lya's name on his lips, and Lyanna clutching the rose petals, which goes back to HH.

Or (credit to J. Star here)

Rhaegar putting those blue rose in Lyanna's lap with the point of his lance---clearly phallic imagery

I am curious as to what these other options are, all I ever see is Brandon and that doesn't work Timeline wise

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Well I think it's because Rhaegar is the bigger mystery. Jon's mother is already a mystery at the start of the series so the clues are perhaps heavier--being raised by Ned, being of Ned's blood but not his son, the blue rose from the HotU and the story we hear of Bael the Bard and blue roses going hand in hand with HH and Lyanna.

But I guess what you're getting at is linking R and L together. So how do you explain R dying with Lya's name on his lips, and Lyanna clutching the rose petals, which goes back to HH.

Or (credit to J. Star here)

Rhaegar putting those blue rose in Lyanna's lap with the point of his lance---clearly phallic imagery

I am curious as to what these other options are, all I ever see is Brandon and that doesn't work Timeline wise

I thought they meant the link between R and J, not between R and L.

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I thought they meant the link between R and J, not between R and L.

If A=B, and B=C, then A=C....

Please don't be the second person today to tell me that basic principles of math are broken.

Seriously. A 50+ year old man who works for a local government tax department (and was formerly a mud engineer, so knows enough math to know this is bullshit) believes math is wrong.

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That was me :)

Great job! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

J.Star said : "In that case, just follow the trail of Lyanna's blue roses. It leads back to Rhaegar and the Harrenhal tourney."

Trust me and i'm not trying to be anal,but i've glanced at these threads so many times gone over what you guys have ascribed as hints,forshadowing etc. Still i see clear connections to Jon being Lya's son. Hell i went to Sj4iJ's link and i come away with the same idea the same thing...Jon as Lya's son. To me this arguement on the otherside has Rheagar as Jon's father because of Rheagar's suppossed connection to Lya and that has holes in it.

This is a suggestion or maybe a request that you guys don't have to take the heart,i ask only because who all have been compiling etc. But how about finding connections that exists between R and J or somebody else if they are there or not?

Rhaegar's connection to Lyanna isn't "supposed" though. He crowned her with blue roses at the HH tourney. Later he ran off with her. Ned finds her in a "bed of blood" at the end of the war. During AGoT, Ned thinks of Lyanna and blue roses a bunch of times. I mean, these holes you speak of are awfully small.

If A=B, and B=C, then A=C....

This.

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I thought they meant the link between R and J, not between R and L.

If that's the case, then sorry Wolfmaid! But I think it all still works, especially the heavy phallic imagery we got in the World Book (again, credit to J. Star). And despite what I see a lot outside of RLJ, Jon is quite a bit like father. Ygrain has an essay on all that somewhere...and discussed it on an edition of Radio Westeros.

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Really? I ve seen a couple that were viable but wern't given any heady way for discussion. But i will say this again.Lya on her own has enough proof to be Jon's mother.Why can' t this be said of Rheagar? On his own he doesn't hold that much weight to be frank and this to me is a problem.

That's why I mentioned the literary completeness angle in addition to the "is it possible" one. Options that may be technically "possible" but aren't in conversation with the rest of ASOIAF (themes, leitmotifs and so forth) aren't viable imo.

For example (and this is but one example of what I mean), Jon comes across ersatz Rhaegar figures, not Aerys inserts, at various points in the story. In his first chapter, Jon muses on Jaime, decked out in an outfit reminiscent of Rhaegar, and reflects on how much a true king he looks. He later comes across Mance, again, in Rhaegar's colors, mirroring Rhaegar's love of song, and becomes Jon's mentor/ ersatz father figure, whom Jon comes to see as a "true king" too. These incidents don't point to Aerys, but Rhaegar; the motif is highly developed in favor of Rhaegar.

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