Star Wars: Critical Divide (This is the way)

[Kalbear]

5 minutes ago, Ser Rodrigo Belmonte II said:

Overall I think it’s been quite positively received by the critics and the fanbase:

Review aggregator Rotten Tomatoes reports that 94% of 92 critics gave the series a positive review, with an average rating of 7.5/10. The website's critical consensus reads, "Elevated by Rosario Dawson's strong performance in the title role and a solid story that balances new and old elements of the Star Warssaga, Ahsoka is a must-watch for fans of the franchise

Good for Filoni! 

Cool, so if we don't agree with the overall rating from critics then we are probably wrong, right?

Wonder how Andor rated

[Ran]

Regarding the map, the sounds Bayan heard are, to me, a suggestion of why this particular means of going to another galaxy using the map as a guide will get them to where they want to go:

Spoiler

I assume that the ancient people who created the map were marking the place where the space whales migrate to every so often, and the assumption is that the whales carried Thrawn and Ezra Bridger to that far away location and dumped them there. 

The RT score and that quoted review both show that this is basically a "solid" show that offends no one. But it's also not an especially ambitious show in terms of its storytelling, so is that surprising? It was practically designed to be inoffensive.

Edited August 24, 2023 by Ran

[HokieStone]

11 hours ago, horangi said:

ETA: And a Republican General demanding classified information be briefed in an unsecured room where a buncha those same unscreened former Nazis are hanging out.

Hera's line "I'm a General, nothing is classified for me" was incredibly cringe-worthy. Just tells me that the writers know absolutely nothing about how intelligence classification works.  (Not that this is anything new for Hollywood)

[Slurktan]

1 hour ago, HokieStone said:

Hera's line "I'm a General, nothing is classified for me" was incredibly cringe-worthy. Just tells me that the writers know absolutely nothing about how intelligence classification works.  (Not that this is anything new for Hollywood)

I hope they are showing that Hera is kind of incompetent.  I mean two "Jedi" attack a new republic ship and her first call isn't to Luke fucking Skywalker?  He really is a problem with these shows set after Jedi, they need to clearly establish why the good guys aren't calling him in all the time but they aren't doing that.

 

EDIT: Plus you know, that she hasn't been promoted in roughly 10 years would point to that,

Edited August 24, 2023 by Slurktan

[mormont]

I was going to say that Ray Stevenson is by far the MVP of this series to date, but he has serious competition from Ray Stevenson's Beard. The two of them in combination have as much screen presence as any other five actors on the cast. Magnificent. 

2 hours ago, HokieStone said:

Hera's line "I'm a General, nothing is classified for me" was incredibly cringe-worthy. Just tells me that the writers know absolutely nothing about how intelligence classification works.  (Not that this is anything new for Hollywood)

You don't know how intelligence classification works in the New Republic, though.

(I'll brace myself for an explanation of how it *must* work, nothing else makes sense, etc. ;))

Anyway my interpretation of that scene was that Syndulla is pushing Weaver with a bluff because she suspects the 'classification' is a bullshit excuse. And it is!

[Rhom]

As usual... coming to the internet after enjoying something independently sucks all joy from it.   

I liked the show.  I still think Andor is the best and most ambitious thing I've seen in Star Wars, but that's because Andor is a great show independent of Star Wars and really had nothing that necessarily required it to be set "A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away."  Ahsoka is Star Wars.  It has to be Star Wars and nothing else.  (Although the opening scene with "You have the bridge" felt very Star Trek to me.   )

I have watched very few episodes of Clone Wars and only most of Rebels.  I didn't see anything of the last season, so I only know the set up from picking up snippets here on this forum.  The big problem with this show (to me) is that it presupposes a strong familiarity with those cartoons.  This does create a bit of a barrier to entry in my mind.  Its a similar problem that the MCU is setting up these days by requiring knowledge of three different TV shows to really know where a theatrical movie is set.

And yes, Ray Stevenson was badass and I also really liked his sentiment about killing the Jedi.  I will be interested to see what his character is and why he apparently wasn't a Sith or an Inquisitor.  

I'm in for the long haul with this.

[Ran]

Eh, Ahsoka could be a generic space opera. It doesn't really have to be Star Wars. Or a straight up fantasy, maybe a bit Japanese inspired given how Ashoka herself is coded.  At least so far.

While Andor could indeed be set as a WWII piece or some sort of non-SW thing, the reason it really works well as Star Wars is that it deepens our appreciation of it. The Empire feels more real in Andor. The Rebellion feels more real in Andor. This impacts not just that show, but all the shows and films that feature those elements. It's an enhancement to the entire franchise, not just a good story on its own (though it's that, as well). In my opinion, in any case.

Still liking the show, and yes, the writing is ... not great. But I judge it by what I imagine the cartoon was like, and who it was targetted for. It being simplistic and not ambitious leaves it in the comfort zone for a wide range of viewers. Again, it's not ambitious. It's aiming low. It is, so far, suceeding on its own terms.

Edited August 24, 2023 by Ran

[Jaxom 1974]

I did watch all of Rebels...and with that knowledge watched the start of Ahsoka and even then, the way it was presented, it absolutely worked if you had no working knowledge of the characters. Even with working knowledge, the same questions are being asked: What was the actual relationship of Sabine/Ahsoka? How did Ezra's disappearance and the search for him play into what happened between them? Will, does, that matter to any solution to the show, or is it background? Who is Balyan Skoll ultimately? Who is the mysterious, silent Inquisitor working with him? (A question the clickbait media wants to be a bigger part of the show - is it Bariss Offee or Ezra?) Why is the New Republic so bad at things?

It all worked overall...

[Darryk]

32 minutes ago, Ran said:

Eh, Ahsoka could be a generic space opera. It doesn't really have to be Star Wars. Or a straight up fantasy, maybe a bit Japanese inspired given how Ashoka herself is coded.  At least so far.

While Andor could indeed be set as a WWII piece or some sort of non-SW thing, the reason it really works well as Star Wars is that it deepens our appreciation of it. The Empire feels more real in Andor. The Rebellion feels more real in Andor. This impacts not just that show, but all the shows and films that feature those elements. It's an enhancement to the entire franchise, not just a good story on its own (though it's that, as well). In my opinion, in any case.

Still liking the show, and yes, the writing is ... not great. But I judge it by what I imagine the cartoon was like, and who it was targetted for. It being simplistic and not ambitious leaves it in the comfort zone for a wide range of viewers. Again, it's not ambitious. It's aiming low. It is, so far, suceeding on its own terms.

But... I thought you didn't watch any Star Wars except Andor?

[Ran]

9 minutes ago, Darryk said:

But... I thought you didn't watch any Star Wars except Andor?

I don't watch SW stuff just because it's SW. I'm not watching future Star Wars movies reflexively as I did with the sequel trilogy or Rogue One, but will decide case-by-case. Hell, already put that into practice when I skipped watching Solo in theatres.

I haven't even see The Mandalorian, and the brief clips I've seen of The Book of Boba Fett and Obi-wan made me happy I didn't check those out. Ashoka felt different in some ways from those shows, ecause there was the sense from early promotion that maybe they were going to mess around and kind of do a warped version of Heirs to the Empire with things like specualtion that Ray Stevenson was playing a take on Joruus C'baoth (IMO, it looks increasingly like that's not actually the case! But that's fine.)

Mostly, the show feels in the realm of the things I'd like to see from Star Wars. Visions has also been very good for that, just letting people do non-canonical stories following new characters in a galaxy far, far away that still feels connected in spirit to the OT.

[Kalbear]

I will say that while I understand them setting up the New Republic as ineffective, idiotic buffoons makes...some sense? Maybe? for the ST and what followed there, it's deeply unsatisfying to me in the same way that I imagine seeing what Luke became in TLJ is deeply unsatisfying for others. 

Okay, Han is a flake, and Lando is a con man, but Leia was a fucking political machine and got shit done. And she's letting all of this turn into this total trash? She's okay getting rid of the entire fucking fleet? From what I gather of the ST that wasn't the case - and that's why she founded the resistance - but THAT is the story I want to see too. 

Also, as a rule it's far more interesting to have villains doing well because they're actually competent and talented (like Thrawn from the Zahn stories) than having evil succeed because good is very, very stupid. The New Republic is the political equivalent of every stupid teenager running from the guy with the machete...very slowly, badly, and making stupid decisions at every turn. 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

41 minutes ago, Kalnak the Magnificent said:

Also, as a rule it's far more interesting to have villains doing well because they're actually competent and talented (like Thrawn from the Zahn stories) than having evil succeed because good is very, very stupid. The New Republic is the political equivalent of every stupid teenager running from the guy with the machete...very slowly, badly, and making stupid decisions at every turn. 

This!  So much this!  

I hate with a holy passion stories where “good people” are too stupid or naive to believe evil is working against them.  Competent heros and villains are so much more satisfying.

Edited August 24, 2023 by Ser Scot A Ellison

[Lord Varys]

15 hours ago, karaddin said:

But it's not a map to Thrawn. It's a map to the other galaxy, and the head bad guy knows Thrawn is in the other galaxy.

Eventually we learn something along those lines to a point (only watched half the first episode when I wrote that). But it still sucks. Imagine being Ahsoka and asking somebody who knows for some reason 'Where is Grand Admiral Thrawn'. Then the answer would be a fucking location, and subsequently Ahsoka might look for a map to that location and would mention said location a lot rather than the fucking person who could have gone to a different location in the meantime.

Obviously a much better plot line there would have been to have the Morgan woman be in actual contact with Thrawn who gave him his actual location rather than dreams and visions nonsense.

Also - am I the only guy who doesn't buy that the Morgan woman would hang out on an irrelevant planet in 'The Mandalorian' when she actually is in charge to of building the super hyperdrive ship and about to jump into another galaxy?

That was a silly transition. Not to mention that the 'let us free some villain on his way to trial/prison' for the umpteenth time sucks hard, too. There was literally no reason to bring the Morgan woman back as the Temporary Big Bad.

15 hours ago, karaddin said:

Yeah there's issues with the star charts no longer being accurate in reality that I can hand wave as just Star Wars things, but the core idea of "it's a map to, and the key to operate, an intergalactic hyperbridge" actually makes sense as a thing that could exist. Unlike the other stupid maps let alone the fucking knife that perfectly matched the death star debris.

That maps as such do exist isn't an issue at all. That ancient maps for some reason help you to get to the location of villains who ended up at random places through the random hyperspace jumps of space whales is ... nonsense.

Even more so as so far nobody mentioned the space whales nor gave any explanation why Thrawn and Ezra should be in another galaxy. Sure enough, evil woman does have visions. But that only explains that Thrawn might be there ... not why he ended up there.

Also - who cares about fucking Thrawn? He disappeared with what? One ship, no? Or a couple of them? He could be a danger if he has some kind of armada wherever he is ... but so far nobody indicates as much. Ray Stevenson rambling on about 'power' and 'a new beginning' is kind of silly if we were to imagine it is just Thrawn who is at that place - no evil armada doing his bidding.

[Werthead]

I think the idea is that Thrawn is the only Imperial admiral with enough gravitas and respect to command the loyalty of the various fleets. Plus, something that people keep forgetting, is that Thrawn is the only surviving Grand Admiral: he is the highest-ranking extant member of the Imperial Starfleet. That counts for a lot with some of the Imperial Remnant.

It is also possible that he discovered some weapon or item in the other galaxy that will be of use in trying to conquer the galaxy when he returns. Hopefully not the Yuuzhan Vong or the Sun Crusher (argh).

I also don't think Ahsoka is going to be Heir to the Empire 2. That's more likely to be the Avengers-style movie that follows it. This series will, I think, be more about finding Thrawn and Ezra, trying to stop Thrawn's return, probably failing and ending on a cliffhanger to lead into the film (uncertainty about production timelines and the strike is probably why Mandalorian S3 ended abruptly on a positive note, they needed to bench it whilst working out if they had time to do a S4 before the strike and/or movie). I suspect the movie might deal more with the galactic level of the threat, and to do that it's improbable that Luke and Leia don't get involved, so they need the extra budget to CGI them in.

The Nu-Canon has really shit the bed when it comes to the New Republic's internal politics. Okay, it's hard to do that without Leia (or an uncanny CG copy of her), but I do wish they'd just said fuck it and recast her and Luke (Han, Mon Mothma and Lando they have covered), or simply abandoned this time frame for good. The Expanded Universe did a good job with showing how the New Republic had noble intentions but recreated too many of the problems of the Old Republic that led to its actual downfall, and how the Galactic Federation that replaced the New Republic as a looser, federal arrangement tried to rectify those. The books also had

Spoiler

Borsk Fey'lya as a worthy political opponent to Leia and Mon Mothma, whose motivations made sense and who was a reasonable antagonist but not a dumb one, and was developed over dozens of novels from Heir to the Empire to the New Jedi Order, when he finally redeemed at least a bit of his bullshittery by suicide-bombing the Yuuzhan Vong occupation army on Coruscant with what was effectively a nuke.

 

[polishgenius]

46 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Hopefully not the Yuuzhan Vong

 

I hope they don't bring the Yuuzhan Vong directly into this particular show as an enemy (because I don't want really want to watch this show and I don't think Filoni would be the guy for them) but I do kinda hope they hint at them in some way because the singular project currently in development set after the ST is New Jedi Order, and if they do a film called NJO and it's not about a Vong invasion, Disney are trifling. 

I'd potentially enjoy it if Thrawn met Vergere. I didn't love the way she was retconned into a Sith after NJO, but in the hands of wise people introducing her and, long term, having her hang around and fuck with people's heads would be a neat way to retcon more plausibility into Luke and Kylo Ren's whole deal. But I don't see that happening at all and I'm not so sure the people in charge are all that wise. So that's just wishful thinking. 

Edited August 24, 2023 by polishgenius

[sifth]

My friend laughed, when I told him the villains plans, were to rescue Thrawn from space whales.

[Werthead]

To be fair, the last time whales appeared in a massive space opera franchise with the word "Star" in the title, the results slapped. So I'm giving them some leeway on that one.

Also, I think the whales were just the mechanism to get Thrawn out of the GFFA for the duration, I'm not convinced they'll actually show up in this series (though their cameo in The Mandalorian last year suggests they might).

[Relic]

So, am i trippin or did the New Order, errr First Order,  Death Star like 8 to 800 planets near the end of TFA? And if so, how does anything after the end of Jedi but before the ST matter? Like these dudes merc'd 800,000,000,000+ people and the New Republic did NOTHING to stop it. 

[Ran]

54 minutes ago, Werthead said:

, I'm not convinced they'll actually show up in this series

In the first scene on Seatos, after Bayan sends his apprentice to inform Morgan, he looks up when he hears a sound from the sky. Sounded like a space whale to me, looking at a clip from Rebels.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

What a minute… the Star Destroyer bridge was breeched… they jumped to a different Galaxy… I have to say it…

”It’s an alien [Galaxy] Is there air?  You don’t know”…