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BearQueen87

R+L=J v.137

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Reference guide

The R+L=J theory claims Jon Snow most probably is the son of crown prince Rhaegar Targaryen and Ned's sister Lyanna Stark.

The Tower of the Hand has an excellent analysis of this theory:
Jon Snow's Parents

And Westeros' Citadel also provides a summary:
Jon Snow's Parents

A Wiki of Ice and Fire:
Jon Snow Theories

Radio Westeros podcast:
A Dragon, a Wolf and a Rose

Frequently Asked Questions:

How can Jon be a Targaryen if ordinary fire burned his hand?
Targaryens are not immune to fire. It's a myth that has been refuted by a list of Targaryens being burned. Danaerys 'the unburnt' was indeed unscathed when she hatched the dragon eggs, but that has not stopped her being burned on other occasions. See this thread on Targaryen fire immunity.

Don't all Targaryens have hallmark Valryian silver-golden hair and purple eyes?
Not all of them: Valarr and Queen Alysanne had blue eyes. Bittersteel, who like Jon was half first men blood, had brown hair. Baelor Breakspear and his son(s) and Jon's own half-sister Rhaenys had the Dornish look (dark hair, black eyes, olive skin). Rhaenyra Targaryen's three sons all had brown hair and brown eyes even though both their parents had light silver-gold hair.
Had Jon Valyrian features, it would give his parentage away: "He had the Stark face if not the name: long, solemn, guarded, a face that gave nothing away. Whoever his mother had been, she had left little of herself in her son." Tyrion got the bit about the mother wrong, though: his mother was the Stark.

If Jon isn't Ned's son, then why does he look so much like him?
Jon looks very like Arya, and Arya looks very like Lyanna. Jon is Ned's nephew, and Lyanna and Ned looked similar.

Ned is too honourable to lie. If he says Jon is his son, doesn't that mean he must be?
Ned tells Arya that sometimes lies can be honourable. His final words, a confession of his guilt, are a lie to protect Sansa. While a lie can be honourable, cheating on his wife isn't, so Ned's famed honour points to Jon not being his son.

How can Jon be half-Targaryen and have a direwolf?
He's also half Stark, through Lyanna. Ned's trueborn children are half Tully and that doesn't stop them having direwolves.

Why doesn't Ned ever think about Lyanna being Jon's mother?
Ned doesn't think about anyone being Jon's mother. If he did, there would be no mystery. He names 'Wylla' to Robert, but we do not see him thinking of Wylla being Jon's mother.
There's a hidden hint at who Jon's mother might be: In chapter 4, Eddard's internal monologue goes "Lyanna ... Ned had loved her with all his heart." and in chapter 6, Catelyn thinks "Whoever Jon's mother had been, Ned must have loved her fiercely".

Why would Ned not at least tell Catelyn?
We don't have a list of what Ned promised to Lyanna, but know he takes his promises seriously. Maybe he promised not to tell anyone. In Chapter 45, Ned is uncertain what Cat would do if it came to Jon's life over that of her own children. If Catelyn knew that Jon was Rhaegar's son, she might feel that keeping him at Winterfell presented a serious risk to her own children. Ultimately, Catelyn did not need to know, so maybe Ned simply chose to be on the safe side.

Doesn't Ned refer to Robb and Jon as "my sons in the very first chapter?
In speech, not in thought. Ned is keeping Jon's parentage secret. He never thinks of Jon as his son: In Chapter 45, Ned thinks of his children "Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon and explicitly excludes Jon from the list. ADwD Chapter 34 has Bran's vision of younger Ned in the Winterfell godswood: "...let them grow up close as brothers, with only love between them," he prayed, "and let my lady wife find it in her heart to forgive..." which not make sense if they are brothers.

Since Rhaegar was already married, wouldn't Jon still be a bastard?
He might, or might not. There was a tradition of polygamy among Targaryens in the past, so the possibility that Rhaegar and Lyanna married is not easily ruled out. A pro-legitimacy argument is this: The presence of the three kingsguards at the Tower of Joy is best explained if they were defending the heir to the throne, which Jon would only be if he was legitimate.

Can we be certain polygamy is not illegal?
Aegon I and Maegor I practised polygamy. In Westeros, unlike a constitutional monarchy, royals are not subject to the law. So if there ever was a law against it, it did not apply to the Targaryens: In Chapter 33 it says "like their dragons the Targaryens answered to neither gods nor men". Examples demonstrate that it was considered an option for Targaryens: Aegon IV and Daemon Blackfyre may have considered it for Daemon, Jorah Mormont suggested it to Daenerys as a viable option, and she said the same about Quentyn Martell.
George R.R. Martin says in this SSM: "If you have a dragon, you can have as many wives as you want". There is also this SSM predating the worldbook.
On Polygamy essay by Ygrain with additions by Rhaenys_Targaryen

Weren't the Kingsguard at Tower of Joy on the basis of an order from Aerys, to guard Lyanna as a hostage?
If so, why would they have apparently made no effort to use this leverage against Robert and Ned? Some argue their Kingsguard vows would have taken precedence and still have required them to leave the Tower to protect Viserys when he became heir -- unless there was another that took precedence [Jon]. Others think they were guarding Lyanna as a hostage at the Tower of Joy. Some say that makes little sense: She would better be kept hostage at King's Landing, and wouldn't require kingsguards to guard her. The mere presence of three kingsguards implies something more important: guarding members of the royal family or maybe the heir.
Frequently suggested readings: At the tower of joy by MtnLion and support of the toj analysis by Ygrain

Isn't there an SSM that says the 3 Kingsguard were following Rhaegar's orders though?
The SSM you may be thinking of is probably this: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that. They can't say, "No we don't like that order, we'll do something else."
We know from Barristan, protecting the king is the first and most important of all kingsguard duties. Jamie suggests some other KG to stay with the king when he wants to leave for the Trident and we also learn of a ritual that is performed when all KG meet and the king is guarded by someone who is not from the order.
"Protect vs Obey" is an ongoing subject of debate that is unlikely to be settled until we know more. Either viewpoint is compatible with R+L=J.

Wouldn't Viserys take precedence anyway? Rhaegar died without becoming king, and doesn't the world book call Viserys, not Aegon, Aerys' new heir?
No, in the case of an eldest son dying before the king dies, a grandson comes before a younger son. Even in the case the grandson is yet unborn at the time of death, he would succeed (heir apparent vs. heir presumptive). The world book is written with a Lannister bias (it may be propaganda to undermine Dornish support for the Targaryens) and in hindsight by maesters who have never learned all of what we know from Ned's dreams and memories. If it still turns out to be true... see the next answer.

Are matters of succession just as clear as presented here?
Succession quarrels are a part of medieval power play and even a very clear inheritance could well be contested. So maybe in King's Landing things did happen as the world book says. Rhaegar and Aerys may have been at odds over the succession. Rhaegar told Jaime before leaving for the Trident that he intended to call a council, and The Great Councils of the past have dealt with matters of succession. Who would have accepted such a change is a question worth asking.

Ned is dead. Who's going to tell anyone about it?
Bloodraven and Bran may have learned of it through the weirwood network. Benjen might know. Checkov's Crannogman Howland Reed is the sole survivor of the encounter at the Tower of Joy, and George R.R. Martin has stated he has not yet appeared because he knows too much about the central mystery of the book. "They had found him [Ned] still holding her [Lyanna's] body" tells that there also was someone else besides Howland to find Ned.

Why is this important? What impact can it have on the story?
The careful way the mystery of Jon's parentage was created is reason to believe it's important. What impact it will have on the rest of the series is still unknown.

This theory is too obvious and too many people believe it to be fact. How can it be true?
It is not so obvious to the majority of readers. Some will get it on their first read, but most will not. Readers who go to online fan forums, such as this, still represent a very small minority of the readership. Also, A Game of Thrones has been out since 1996. That's more than 18 years of readers being able to piece together this mystery. Crowd-sourced internet-based mystery solving like this inevitably make solved mysteries seem more obvious in hindsight.

George R.R. Martin is a "breaker of tropes, there can be no hidden prince, it's simply too cliché.
In order to break a trope it needs to be installed in the first place. It is yet unknown what will happen to Jon in the future. Being the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar does not imply the fairy-tale style happy ending associated with the hidden prince trope.

Is there a list of all R+L=J clues that have been found?
There is a list of R+L=J hints, clues and foreshadowing compiled by sj4iy.

Since this theory has been refined so well, will Martin change the outcome of the story to surprise his fans?
He has stated that he won't change the outcome of the story just because some people have put together all the clues and solved the puzzle.

Previous editions:
Please click on the spoiler below to reveal links to all previous editions of this thread

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (thread one)

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (thread two)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part III) (thread three)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part IV) (thread four)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part V) (thread five)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part VI) (thread six)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Thread Part VII (thread seven)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part VIII (thread eight)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part IX (thread nine)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna =Jon Thread, Part X(thread ten)

The R+L=J thread, part XI (thread eleven)

The R+L=J thread, part XII (thread twelve)

R+L=J Part XXIII (thread thirteen)

R+L=J Part XXIV (thread fourteen)

R+L=J XXV (thread fifteen)

R+L=J v.16 (thread sixteen)

R+L=J v.17 (thread seventeen)

R+L=J v.18 (thread eighteen)

R+L=J v.19 (thread nineteen)

R+L=J v.20 (thread twenty)

R+L=J v.21 (thread twenty-one)

R+L=J v.22 (thread twenty-two)

R+L=J v.22a (thread twenty-two (a))

R+L=J v.23 (thread twenty-three)

R+L=J v.24 (thread twenty-four)

R+L=J v.25 (thread twenty-five)

R+L=J v.26 (thread twenty-six)

R+L=J v.27 (thread twenty-seven)

R+L=J v.28 (thread twenty-eight)

R+L=J v.29 (thread twenty-nine)

R+L=J v.30 (thread thirty)

R+L=J v.31 (thread thirty-one)

R+L=J v.32 (thread thirty-two)

R+L=J v.33 (thread thirty-three)

R+L=J v.34 (thread thirty-four)

R+L=J v.35 (thread thirty-five)

R+L=J v.36 (thread thirty-six)

R+L=J v.37 (thread thirty-seven)

R+L=J v.38 (thread thirty-eight)

R+L=J v.39 (thread thirty-nine)

"R+L=J v.40" (thread forty)

"R+L=J v.41" (thread forty-one)

"R+L=J v.42" (thread forty-two)

"R+L=J v.43" (thread forty-three)

"R+L=J v.44" (thread forty-four)

"R+L=J v.45" (thread forty-five)

"R+L=J v.46" (thread forty-six)

"R+L=J v.47" (thread forty-seven)

"R+L=J v.48" (thread forty-eight)

"R+L=J v.49" (thread forty-nine)

"R+L=J v.50" (thread fifty)

"R+L=J v.51" (thread fifty-one)

"R+L=J v.52" (thread fifty-two)

"R+L=J v.53" (thread fifty-three)

"R+L=J v.54" (thread fifty-four)

"R+L=J v.55" (thread fifty-five)

"R+L=J v.56" (thread fifty-six)

"R+L=J v.57" (thread fifty-seven)

"R+L=J v.58" (thread fifty-eight)

"R+L=J v.59" (thread fifty-nine)

"R+L=J v.60" (thread sixty)

"R+L=J v.61" (thread sixty-one)

"R+L=J v.62" (thread sixty-two)

"R+L=J v.63" (thread sixty-three)

"R+L=J v.64" (thread sixty-four)

"R+L=J v.65" (thread sixty-five)

"R+L=J v.66" (thread sixty-six)

"R+L=J v.67" (thread sixty-seven)

"R+L=J v.68" (thread sixty-eight)

"R+L=J v.69" (thread sixty-nine)

"R+L=J v.70" (thread seventy)

"R+L=J v.71" (thread seventy-one)

"R+L=J v.72" (thread seventy-two)

"R+L=J v.73" (thread seventy-three)

"R+L=J v.74" (thread seventy-four)

"R+L=J v.75" (thread seventy-five)

"R+L=J v.76" (thread seventy-six)

"R+L=J v.77" (thread seventy-seven)

"R+L=J v.78" (thread seventy-eight)

"R+L=J v.79" (thread seventy-nine)

"R+L=J v.80" (thread eighty)

"R+L=J v.81" (thread eighty-one)

"R+L=J v.82" (thread eighty-two)

"R+L=J v.83" (thread eighty-three)

"R+L=J v.84" (thread eighty-four)

"R+L=J v.85" (thread eighty-five)

"R+L=J v.86" (thread eighty-six)

"R+L=J v.87" (thread eighty-seven)

"R+L=J v.88" (thread eighty-eight)

"R+L=J v.89" (thread eighty-nine)

"R+L=J v.90" (thread ninety)

"R+L=J v.91" (thread ninety-one)

"R+L=J v.92" (thread ninety-two)

"R+L=J v.93" (thread ninety-three)

"R+L=J v.94" (thread ninety-four)

"R+L=J v.95" (thread ninety-five)

"R+L=J v.96" (thread ninety-six)

"R+L=J v.97" (thread ninety-seven)

"R+L=J v.98" (thread ninety-eight)

"R+L=J v.99" (thread ninety-nine)

"R+L=J v.100" (thread one hundred)

"R+L=J v.101" (thread one hundred one)

"R+L=J v.102" (thread one hundred two)

"R+L=J v.103" (thread one hundred three)

"R+L=J v.104" (thread one hundred four)

"R+L=J v.105" (thread one hundred five)

"R+L=J v.106" (thread one hundred six)

"R+L=J v.107" (thread one hundred seven)

"R+L=J v.108" (thread one hundred eight)

"R+L=J v.109" (thread one hundred nine)

"R+L=J v.110" (thread one hundred ten)

"R+L=J v.111" (thread one hundred eleven)

"R+L=J v.112" (thread one hundred twelve)

"R+L=J v.113" (thread one hundred thirteen)

"R+L=J v.114" (thread one hundred fourteen)

The "[TWoIaF Spoilers] R+L=J" threads were used to openly discuss spoilers from TWoIaF at the time we needed to protect that information.

"[TWoIaF Spoilers] R+L=J v.1"

"[TWoIaF Spoilers] R+L=J v.2"

"[TWoIaF Spoilers] R+L=J v.3"


"R+L=J v.115" (thread one hundred fifteen)

"R+L=J v.116" (thread one hundred sixteen)

"R+L=J v.117" (thread one hundred seventeen)

"R+L=J v.118" (thread one hundred eighteen)

"R+L=J v.119" (thread one hundred nineteen)

"R+L=J v.120" (thread one hundred twenty)

"R+L=J v.121" (thread one hundred twenty one)

"R+L=J v.122" (thread one hundred twenty two)

"R+L=J v.123" (thread one hundred twenty three)

"R+L=J v.124" (thread one hundred twenty four)

"R+L=J v.125" (thread one hundred twenty five)

"R+L=J v.126" (thread one hundred twenty six)

"R+L=J v.127" (thread one hundred twenty seven)

"R+L=J v.128" (thread one hundred twenty eight)

"R+L=J v.129" (thread one hundred twenty nine)

"R+L=J v. 130" (thread one hundred thirty)

"R+L=J v.131" (thread one hundred thirty one)

"R+L=J v.132" (thread one hundred thirty two)

"R+L=J v.133" (thread one hundred thirty three)

"R+L=J v.134" (thread one hundred thirty four)

"R+L=J v.135" (thread one hundred thirty five)

R+L=J v. 136 (thread one hundred thirty six)

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The shiny continues



ETA: ACK! yes. I realize this is 137 not 136. I sent a note to the mods asking for a title change


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@The Twinslayer



"So Ned would have no trouble thinking that Dayne was one of the most honorable men alive even if Dayne believed Viserys was the true king but still refrained from going to Dragonstone, just like Barristan."



Selmy fought valiantly for his King and was defeated. After the destruction of the Targaren dynasty there was a new Dynasty. In Selmy's case he could choose to go into exile or serve the new King who had saved his life on the Trident when he really didn't need to.



Dayne would have knowingly ignored his new King who was in need with no excuse to go there. So unless you are pushing the "nothing left to live for theory" and Dayne was there to die in honorable combat I'm not sure how this works. The ToJ KGs had no inclination to support the new King.



"I also think it is incorrect to say that Ned despised Jaime for killing Aerys. He thinks Jaime broke the kingsguard oath when he killed Aerys. But we know that oathbreaking is something Ned can excuse. He tells Arya that there can be honor in a lie. He breaks his own oath of loyalty to Aerys by rebelling. And he conspires with Lord Godric to lie to Aerys about the fact that Godric let him escape if Robert loses the Rebellion: "If you lose," he told Lord Eddard, "you were never here.""



The Kingsguard has one crucial vow that is their namesake. Protection of the King. What Jaime did was beyond neglecting to do his duty, it was a pure violation of the very vow and spirit of the organization he served in. Ned of course doesn't know about Aerys' plan to burn Kingslanding or telling Jaime to kill his own father. In the case of the rebellion Aerys murdered Ned's brother and father horribly and called for his and Robert's heads. Clearly the King violated the oath between King and his LP.



"So Ned makes a vow to "guard" the royal bastards."



As a dying wish from his best friend and King. And he didn't vow to guard bastards but all his offspring (which just so happened to be only bastards).



"and they are at the tower with Lyanna and Rhaegar's bastard, what should they do?"



Send at least one of their number to their new King to insure he is protected and to over see the organization of the remaining loyalist forces. But the real catch is if it was just a "bastard" what would they have to fear from Ned Stark the uncle of said bastard? The brother of the woman in the tower? The child has no claim to the throne (or so weak that the uncle wouldn't go out of his way to harm it). There might be slight fear that he will turn the bastard over to Robert to be killed, but these 3 would not sacrifice all of their lives or even risk them for a bastard when their King has *no* Kingsguard protecting him.



"Based on all of this, I think that Ned would believe the 3 KGs were honorable if they did not go to their new "king" Viserys and instead stayed to guard the royal bastard at the toj against the threat of assassination by the Usurper's Dogs. "



If one of them did, not all of them. Especially since they show *no* inclination to go to Viserys at all. They do not flee, then or now. Meaning by the book Hightower had no interest in going to Viserys when they learned of it, and they currently (as of that scene) had no interest in going to Dragonstone. They have a chane of losing and dying here, so instead of negotiating with Ned to take care of his own bastard nephew and leaving for Dragonstone they fight to the death.



Now if there was a royal prince or King within the tower these men would have all the reason in the world to fight to death. Not that they would necessarily think Ned would kill him (though there is a chance he would turn him over to Robert). But that Ned would deny him his birthright (which is exactly what Ned did). But if there was just a prince in the tower, they still should have sent at least one of their number to their new King. They didn't.


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The OP doesn't count, so... First!



ETA: Damn, :ninja: . Though I must admit that Avalatis is doing a better job.


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The shiny continues

ETA: ACK! yes. I realize this is 137 not 136. I sent a note to the mods asking for a title change

Hit edit, then click "use full editor" and you can change the title.

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Hit edit, then click "use full editor" and you can change the title.

#TheMoreYouKnow

Thanks!! Okay. This is 137 now

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Hit edit, then click "use full editor" and you can change the title.

:ninja: Hey, I was about to tell her that.

But back to the last thread (the real #136) -- regarding my exchange with LV:

LV--

I have always thought of the Team Obey group as the ones who think of the KG as robots who merely continue to obey the orders of dead royals. Whereas, Team Protect maintains that after the deaths of Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon, the KG would have used their normal judgment to determine that the most important job they have at that point is to get to the new king and provide protection. That thinking is not thinking of a robot -- just the expected thinking of an honorable member of the KG who understand his primary vow. So as to your point of him not being able to expect any of the other KG to leave to protect Viserys if he is (or might be) the legit king -- I say I find that argument completely unconvincing. The 3 KG might have given their promise to Rhaegar to protect Lyanna and the baby once born. I have little doubt -- they most likely did exactly that. But Rhaegar is dead; Aegon is dead; Aerys is dead. Any vow to protect Lyanna and the baby cannot be more important that providing at least one KG to the rightful king in order for the KG to keep their primary vow -- if Viserys is, in their eyes, the rightful (or possibly rightful) king, he need a KG. Now ignoring the need to provide the KG in order to keep a promise to a dead prince, in my view, is the behavior of a robot.

As far as the "flee" line, he says the Kingsguard does not flee "then or now." So if they are about to leave, he would have no reason to word it that way. The reference to "now" is an indication, at least in my view, that their primary duty is to remain at ToJ and leaving ToJ "now" would be a breach of their primary duty. That only makes sense if the king (and only candidate for king) is in the tower.

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:ninja: Hey, I was about to tell her that.

But back to the last thread (the real #136) -- regarding my exchange with LV:

LV--

I have always thought of the Team Obey group as the ones who think of the KG as robots who merely continue to obey the orders of dead royals. Whereas, Team Protect maintains that after the deaths of Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon, the KG would have used their normal judgment to determine that the most important job they have at that point is to get to the new king and provide protection.

THAT. The KG chose not to go to DS; they chose to protect the person they thought was the new Targ king--whether out of loyalty for R or because they didn't know about Viserys. Team Obey is the more robotic one.

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As far as the "protect" vs "obey" debate, there were 3 Kingsguard and only 2 potential people/locations to guard. 3 guards, 2 people to guard. They could have easily fulfilled any promise they made to Rhaegar to stay at the Tower of Joy while ALSO protecting Viserys if they had wanted to. 1 or 2 Kingsguard could have gone to Viserys to fulfill their Kingsguard oath while the other 1 or 2 stay at the Tower of Joy. Easy. The fact that they all stayed at the Tower, even Hightower. a guy who we have every reason to believe would choose his Kingsguard duty over any obligation to Rhaegar (as opposed to Dayne and Whent), REALLY suggests that they had reason to believe that they'd be fulfilling both their Kingsguard oath and their promise to Rhaegar by staying at the Tower.


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:ninja: Hey, I was about to tell her that.

But back to the last thread (the real #136) -- regarding my exchange with LV:

LV--

I have always thought of the Team Obey group as the ones who think of the KG as robots who merely continue to obey the orders of dead royals. Whereas, Team Protect maintains that after the deaths of Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon, the KG would have used their normal judgment to determine that the most important job they have at that point is to get to the new king and provide protection. That thinking is not thinking of a robot -- just the expected thinking of an honorable member of the KG who understand his primary vow. So as to your point of him not being able to expect any of the other KG to leave to protect Viserys if he is (or might be) the legit king -- I say I find that argument completely unconvincing. The 3 KG might have given their promise to Rhaegar to protect Lyanna and the baby once born. I have little doubt -- they most likely did exactly that. But Rhaegar is dead; Aegon is dead; Aerys is dead. Any vow to protect Lyanna and the baby cannot be more important that providing at least one KG to the rightful king in order for the KG to keep their primary vow -- if Viserys is, in their eyes, the rightful (or possibly rightful) king, he need a KG. Now ignoring the need to provide the KG in order to keep a promise to a dead prince, in my view, is the behavior of a robot.

As far as the "flee" line, he says the Kingsguard does not flee "then or now." So if they are about to leave, he would have no reason to word it that way. The reference to "now" is an indication, at least in my view, that their primary duty is to remain at ToJ and leaving ToJ "now" would be a breach of their primary duty. That only makes sense if the king (and only candidate for king) is in the tower.

The "then" part seems to refer to fleeing to Dragonstone when an army is approaching King's Landing and the "now" part that Ned and his 6 have arrived. So they're saying that they don't flee fights. They could have been about to leave, but now that Ned's here (i.e a fight) they won't. And we actually see that it's the KG who initiate the fight (Whent greets them with bare steel which we know Ned considered asking for death, Arthur is the first to begin armouring himself and only then do Ned and his men arm themselves). They started the fight, which goes hand in hand with the idea that they won't flee a fight.

If we look at Lewyn Martell, their Sworn Brother, he seemed to have that exact same mentality.

His words did little to soothe her fears. Lyn Corbray had slain almost as many men in duels as he had in battle. He had won his spurs during Robert’s Rebellion, she knew, fighting first against Lord Jon Arryn at the gates of Gulltown, and later beneath his banners on the Trident, where he had cut down Prince Lewyn of Dorne, a white knight of the Kingsguard. Petyr said that Prince Lewyn had been sorely wounded by the time the tide of battle swept him to his final dance with Lady Forlorn, but added, “That’s not a point you’ll want to raise with Corbray, though. Those who do are soon given the chance to ask Martell himself the truth of it, down in the halls of hell.” If even half of what she had heard from Lord Robert’s guards was true, Lyn Corbray was more dangerous than all six of the Lords Declarant put together. “Why is he coming?” she asked. “I thought the Corbrays were for you.”

“Lord Lyonel Corbray is well disposed toward my rule,” said Petyr, “but his brother goes his own way. On the Trident, when their father fell wounded, it was Lyn who snatched up Lady Forlorn and slew the man who’d cut him down. Whilst Lyonel was carrying the old man back to the maesters in the rear, Lyn led his charge against the Dornishmen threatening Robert’s left, broke their lines to pieces, and slew Lewyn Martell. So when old Lord Corbray died, he bestowed the Lady upon his younger son. Lyonel got his lands, his title, his castle, and all his coin, yet still feels he was cheated of his birthright, whilst Ser Lyn... well, he loves Lyonel as much as he loves me. He wanted Lysa’s hand for himself.”

Lyn broke the Dornish lines, but Lewyn kept fighting, even though he was wounded and his army was shattered. He wouldn't flee the fight, no matter what.

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As far as the "protect" vs "obey" debate, there were 3 Kingsguard and only 2 potential people/locations to guard. 3 guards, 2 people to guard. They could have easily fulfilled any promise they made to Rhaegar to stay at the Tower of Joy while ALSO protecting Viserys if they had wanted to. 1 or 2 Kingsguard could have gone to Viserys to fulfill their Kingsguard oath while the other 1 or 2 stay at the Tower of Joy. Easy. The fact that they all stayed at the Tower, even Hightower. a guy who we have every reason to believe would choose his Kingsguard duty over any obligation to Rhaegar (as opposed to Dayne and Whent), REALLY suggests that they had reason to believe that they'd be fulfilling both their Kingsguard oath and their promise to Rhaegar by staying at the Tower.

Exactly.

Also, the argument that Viserys was "safe" on Dragonstone and therefore they didn't feel compelled to go to him is utterly nonsensical. It is completely unconceivable that someone acting as a bodyguard would be perfectly cool with leaving the person that he is supposed to protect somewhere completely beyond his reach because he assumes that they are safe there, that would be dereliction of duty.

My students are also perfectly safe even when I'm not in the room but it is inconceivable that I assign them work and chill out elsewhere, unless I am ordered by the headmaster as the highest authority.

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guys, as you know, Glee final episode was today and I'm very sad. Like Rhaegar Targaryens levels of depression... So, bear with my sadness while we all sing DSB.

Doooooont stooooop... belieeeeeviiiiing... ♫

Ok. I'm also going back to work next week, and I'll be out for some days and stuff, aaaaaaand... as next week (or next one? I forgot now) I post the Dany/Cersei paralel, I'm out of things to do (not really, but I have some ASOIAF free time, heh). So, speaking of the devil, I'd like to start a Rhaegar re-read, trying to analyse his politics moves and everything prophecy related (which in text, there isn't that much) and maybe him as a person, including TWOIAF. If anyone interested, DM. :)

HOLD ON TO THE FEEEE-LEEEE-ING...

STREETLIGHT... PEEEOPLEE-EE-EHHHHHHH ♫

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I was doing a little reading last night and read some of Jaime. He reflects on the killing of Aegon, and apparently the Kingsguard who is protecting Aerys in the safest place in the kingdom does not know about Aerys changing heirs. Now, looking at what Yandel wrote, I can see where Rhaegar was Aerys' heir until he died, then Viserys becomes Aerys' heir as the oldest surviving son. But the heir to the Iron Throne remains Aegon until his death. I believe that a few people have become caught in a word game.



The Red Keep, a castle within a castle, is safer than Dragonstone, a castle on an island. Yet we see Jaime remaining with the king. I cannot see Viserys without a Kingsguard if he is the heir to the Iron Throne. Hightower should ensure that Viserys has Kingsguard protection, unless Viserys is not the heir to the Iron Throne.


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ML,



Aerys has only Jaime left when he decides to send his new heir, Prince Viserys, to Dragonstone. And he had no intention to send Jaime away. Hightower, Whent, and Dayne were at the tower/away/missing in action/whatever Rhaegar told Aerys, and Darry and Martell were dead, Selmy in custody.



Aerys could have named new KG - and I'd not be surprised if it turned out that Ser Willem Darry died wearing a white cloak - but perhaps he did not care to do something like that. A king does not need to have a Kingsguard. Stannis is king, and neither he nor his queen or heiress, Princess Shireen, are protected by a KG. They have just household knights and sworn shields.


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guys, as you know, Glee final episode was today and I'm very sad. Like Rhaegar Targaryens levels of depression... So, bear with my sadness while we all sing DSB.

Doooooont stooooop... belieeeeeviiiiing... ♫

Ok. I'm also going back to work next week, and I'll be out for some days and stuff, aaaaaaand... as next week (or next one? I forgot now) I post the Dany/Cersei paralel, I'm out of things to do (not really, but I have some ASOIAF free time, heh). So, speaking of the devil, I'd like to start a Rhaegar re-read, trying to analyse his politics moves and everything prophecy related (which in text, there isn't that much) and maybe him as a person, including TWOIAF. If anyone interested, DM. :)

HOLD ON TO THE FEEEE-LEEEE-ING...

STREETLIGHT... PEEEOPLEE-EE-EHHHHHHH ♫

Who's Rhaegar? :p

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